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	<title>Comments for Christianity 2.0</title>
	<link>http://www.christianity20.com</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on Free Bibles Online by oneaustin</title>
		<link>http://www.christianity20.com/2008/02/13/free-bibles-online/#comment-59</link>
		<dc:creator>oneaustin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.christianity20.com/2008/02/13/free-bibles-online/#comment-59</guid>
		<description>Also check out &lt;a href="http://www.ebibile.com" rel="nofollow"&gt;eBible&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href="http://www.youversion.com" rel="nofollow"&gt;YouVersion&lt;/a&gt; for added social and media features.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also check out <a href="http://www.ebibile.com" rel="nofollow">eBible</a> and <a href="http://www.youversion.com" rel="nofollow">YouVersion</a> for added social and media features.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Good Semester Indeed by rmansfield</title>
		<link>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/12/18/a-good-semester-indeed/#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator>rmansfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 16:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/12/18/a-good-semester-indeed/#comment-57</guid>
		<description>Bravo. Very Augustinian!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bravo. Very Augustinian!</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Good Semester Indeed by Christian &#187; A Good Semester Indeed</title>
		<link>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/12/18/a-good-semester-indeed/#comment-56</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian &#187; A Good Semester Indeed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 02:56:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/12/18/a-good-semester-indeed/#comment-56</guid>
		<description>[...] patton.andy wrote an interesting post today onHere&#8217;s a quick excerptThe atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. “You’re a Christian, aren’t you, son?” “Yes sir,” the student says. “So you believe [&#8230;] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] patton.andy wrote an interesting post today onHere&#8217;s a quick excerptThe atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. “You’re a Christian, aren’t you, son?” “Yes sir,” the student says. “So you believe [&#8230;] [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Movie: The Golden Compass by oneAustin</title>
		<link>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/11/15/movie-the-golden-compass/#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator>oneAustin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:54:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/11/15/movie-the-golden-compass/#comment-54</guid>
		<description>Christianity Today's review of "the Compass": http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/reviews/2007/goldencompass.html
and their advice on responding to it: http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/commentaries/fearnotthecompass.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christianity Today&#8217;s review of &#8220;the Compass&#8221;: <a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/reviews/2007/goldencompass.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/reviews/2007/goldencompass.html</a><br />
and their advice on responding to it: <a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/commentaries/fearnotthecompass.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/commentaries/fearnotthecompass.html</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on The case of the missing Bible verses&#8230; by rmansfield</title>
		<link>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/11/14/the-case-of-the-missing-bible-verses/#comment-53</link>
		<dc:creator>rmansfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/11/14/the-case-of-the-missing-bible-verses/#comment-53</guid>
		<description>[sigh]

Brian, your insistence that Luke 23:45 is an issue here is laughable to be honest. I can just see "the conspirators" sitting around a table saying, "Shall we corrupt their New Testament manuscripts?" "Yes, yes!" the throng agrees. "What shall we do first--change something that denies the deity of Christ?" "No, no, let's change the word ἐσκοτίσθη to ἐκλιπόντος to really mess with their heads!" 

Come on.

If you look at the first comment under my blog post at http://tinyurl.com/33gcyz you will see the concern of one gentleman who says knowing Greek isn't enough. We have to understand philology, too. That is the understanding of how language is used in different contexts and how it changes over time. Does the English word &lt;i&gt;eclipse&lt;/i&gt; come from the Greek word, ἐκλείπω? Yes, but that doesn't mean that it should be translated as &lt;i&gt;eclipse&lt;/i&gt; anymore than δύναμις should be translated as &lt;i&gt;dynamite&lt;/i&gt; although I've heard preachers mistakenly make this claim. 

However, I'll concede to you that ἐκλείπω was sometimes understood as the verb &lt;i&gt;eclipse&lt;/i&gt;, but to speak in terms of philology, &lt;i&gt;never in the context of the the Koine Greek in the New Testament&lt;/i&gt;. In fact in the standard Greek lexicon that translators and Greek students and scholars use today,--&lt;i&gt;A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Early Christian Literature&lt;/i&gt;, revised and edited by William Frederick Danker (commonly known as the BDAG)--there are four suggestions for understanding ἐκλείπω in English, and not one of them--NOT ONE--uses the word &lt;i&gt;eclipse&lt;/i&gt;. Instead, you find,

&lt;b&gt;1. to be no longer in existence, &lt;i&gt;fail, give out, be gone&lt;/i&gt;
2. to go away from a place, &lt;i&gt;depart&lt;/i&gt;
3. to cease as state or event, &lt;i&gt;fail, die out&lt;/i&gt;
4. to be deficient in one’s appearance, &lt;i&gt;be inferior&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;

The problem is this is what the later monks &lt;i&gt;did not&lt;/i&gt; understand. These Byzantine monks (God bless them) didn't understand philological matters and saw ἐκλιπόντος as "eclipse" and for the same reasons you describe, this caused problems for them. 

But this is the word that Luke, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, used. And for the Byzantine monks to change Luke's writing from ἐκλιπόντος to ἐσκοτίσθη is simply wrong. 

Consider the explanation of this issue from the NET Bible, which has the best set of textual notes of any English translation I know:

&lt;b&gt;The wording “the sun’s light failed” is a translation of τοῦ ἡλίου ἐκλιπόντος/ ἐκλείποντος (&lt;i&gt;tou hēliou eklipontos/ ekleipontos&lt;/i&gt;), a reading found in the earliest and best witnesses (among them P75 ℵ B C✱vid L 070 579 2542 pc) as well as several ancient versions. The majority of MSS (A C3 [D] W Θ Ψ ƒ1, 13 M lat sy) have the flatter, less dramatic term, “the sun was darkened” (ἐσκοτίσθη, &lt;i&gt;eskotisthe&lt;/i&gt;), a reading that avoids the problem of implying an eclipse (see ... below). This alternative thus looks secondary because it is a more common word and less likely to be misunderstood as referring to a solar eclipse. That it appears in later witnesses rather than the earliest ones adds confirmatory testimony to its inauthentic character.

This imagery has parallels to the Day of the Lord: Joel 2:10; Amos 8:9; Zeph 1:15. Some students of the NT see in Luke’s statement the sun’s light failed (&lt;i&gt;eklipontos&lt;/i&gt;) an obvious blunder in his otherwise meticulous historical accuracy. The reason for claiming such an error on the author’s part is due to an understanding of the verb as indicating a solar eclipse when such would be an astronomical impossibility during a full moon. There are generally two ways to resolve this difficulty: (a) adopt a different reading (“the sun was darkened”) that smoothes over the problem (discussed in the [textual comment] problem above), or (b) understand the verb &lt;i&gt;eklipontos&lt;/i&gt; in a general way (such as “the sun’s light failed”) rather than as a technical term, “the sun was eclipsed.” The problem with the first solution is that it is too convenient, for the Christian scribes who, over the centuries, copied Luke’s Gospel would have thought the same thing. That is, they too would have sensed a problem in the wording and felt that some earlier scribe had incorrectly written down what Luke penned. The fact that the reading “was darkened” shows up in the later and generally inferior witnesses does not bolster one’s confidence that this is the right solution. But second solution, if taken to its logical conclusion, proves too much for it would nullify the argument against the first solution: If the term did not refer to an eclipse, then why would scribes feel compelled to change it to a more general term? The solution to the problem is that &lt;i&gt;ekleipo&lt;/i&gt; did in fact sometimes refer to an eclipse, but it did not always do so. (BDAG 306 s.v. ἐκλείπω notes that the verb is used in Hellenistic Greek “Of the sun cease to shine.” In MM it is argued that “it seems more than doubtful that in Lk 23:45 any reference is intended to an eclipse. To find such a reference is to involve the Evangelist in a needless blunder, as an eclipse is impossible at full moon, and to run counter to his general usage of the verb = ‘fail’…” [p. 195]. They enlist Luke 16:9; 22:32; and Heb 1:12 for the general meaning “fail,” and further cite several contemporaneous examples from papyri of this meaning [195-96]) Thus, the very fact that the verb can refer to an eclipse would be a sufficient basis for later scribes altering the text out of pious motives; conversely, the very fact that the verb does not always refer to an eclipse and, in fact, does not normally do so, is enough of a basis to exonerate Luke of wholly uncharacteristic carelessness.&lt;/b&gt;

Finally, you point out that 8 (count 'em, &lt;i&gt;eight&lt;/i&gt;) translations based on the standard eclectic text that have translated ἐκλιπόντος as "eclipse." Did you make this number up? No translation that I use and no major contemporary translation uses the word &lt;i&gt;eclipse&lt;/i&gt; in Luke 23:45. I don't care if the Moffatt translation used &lt;i&gt;eclipse&lt;/i&gt;. Nobody uses that translation today, and it did not win wide use when it was published. 

Consider the following versions as evidence that your so-called "8 translations" was nothing more than a straw man argument:

&lt;b&gt;“he sun’s light failing: and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.” (ASV)

“while the sun’s light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.” (ESV)

“because the sun’s light failed. The curtain of the sanctuary was split down the middle.” (HCSB)

“the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two.” (NASB)

“because the sun was obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two.” (NASB '95 update)

“The sun had stopped shining. The curtain in the temple was split in two.” (GWT)

“because the sun’s light failed. The temple curtain was torn in two.” (NET)

“The light from the sun was gone. And suddenly, the thick veil hanging in the Temple was torn apart.” (NLT1)

“The light from the sun was gone. And suddenly, the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn down the middle.” (NLTse)

“for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.” (NIV)

“for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.” (TNIV)

“while the sun’s light failed; and the curtain of the temple was torn in two.” (NRSV)

“a total blackout. The Temple curtain split right down the middle.” (MESSAGE)

“the sun’s light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.” (REB)

"when the sun stopped shining ... and the curtain hanging in the Temple was torn in two." (TEV)&lt;/b&gt;

As you can see above, NOBODY is translating ἐκλιπόντος as &lt;i&gt;eclipse&lt;/i&gt; because that's simply not what the word meant in the Koine Greek of the NT. Anyone who does translate it this was is producing a bad and uninformed rendering.

By the way, the standard eclectic text is based upon more than five manuscripts. Whoever told you this is uninformed.

The leadership of the Reformation used the Textus Receptus because it was the best tradition of its day. Heck, if I'd been around at that time, I would have used it, too. We're better informed now.

Why would I believe that Christians (and not heretics) would change the Word of God? Because there are always Christians who simply are uninformed to certain principles of translation, such as the philological issues surrounding a word like ἐκλείπω. There were also Christian scribes who misread a word (or misheard for those instances where it was being dictated) and copied down an incorrect one. I'm not accusing any scribe of meaning to harm the words of the NT writers. I'm sure they they either made natural mistakes or thought they were working in the best interest of the reading. Again, I would refer you to Metzger's book, &lt;i&gt;The Text of the New Testament: It’s Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration&lt;/i&gt; for a complete listing of the kind of errors that led to those found in the Byzantine tradition.

Finally, in regard to the Vulgate and ch. 13 of OABV, I believe you are misreading your sources, and yes, I still call this a red herring. That chapter has to do with the 1881 Revised Version of the Bible. This was a translation that was widely rejected by protestants of the English speaking world and corrected 20 years later in the ASV. I don't care whether the RV agreed with the Vulgate or not. I don't rely on the RV any more than I'd rely on the Westcott Hort Greek New Testament (which incidentally Hendrickson recently republished). We've come a long way since both of those editions and our understanding of the Greek text, the manuscripts that support it, and how to render it in English has greatly increased.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[sigh]</p>
<p>Brian, your insistence that Luke 23:45 is an issue here is laughable to be honest. I can just see &#8220;the conspirators&#8221; sitting around a table saying, &#8220;Shall we corrupt their New Testament manuscripts?&#8221; &#8220;Yes, yes!&#8221; the throng agrees. &#8220;What shall we do first&#8211;change something that denies the deity of Christ?&#8221; &#8220;No, no, let&#8217;s change the word ἐσκοτίσθη to ἐκλιπόντος to really mess with their heads!&#8221; </p>
<p>Come on.</p>
<p>If you look at the first comment under my blog post at <a href="http://tinyurl.com/33gcyz" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/33gcyz</a> you will see the concern of one gentleman who says knowing Greek isn&#8217;t enough. We have to understand philology, too. That is the understanding of how language is used in different contexts and how it changes over time. Does the English word <i>eclipse</i> come from the Greek word, ἐκλείπω? Yes, but that doesn&#8217;t mean that it should be translated as <i>eclipse</i> anymore than δύναμις should be translated as <i>dynamite</i> although I&#8217;ve heard preachers mistakenly make this claim. </p>
<p>However, I&#8217;ll concede to you that ἐκλείπω was sometimes understood as the verb <i>eclipse</i>, but to speak in terms of philology, <i>never in the context of the the Koine Greek in the New Testament</i>. In fact in the standard Greek lexicon that translators and Greek students and scholars use today,&#8211;<i>A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Early Christian Literature</i>, revised and edited by William Frederick Danker (commonly known as the BDAG)&#8211;there are four suggestions for understanding ἐκλείπω in English, and not one of them&#8211;NOT ONE&#8211;uses the word <i>eclipse</i>. Instead, you find,</p>
<p><b>1. to be no longer in existence, <i>fail, give out, be gone</i><br />
2. to go away from a place, <i>depart</i><br />
3. to cease as state or event, <i>fail, die out</i><br />
4. to be deficient in one’s appearance, <i>be inferior</i></b></p>
<p>The problem is this is what the later monks <i>did not</i> understand. These Byzantine monks (God bless them) didn&#8217;t understand philological matters and saw ἐκλιπόντος as &#8220;eclipse&#8221; and for the same reasons you describe, this caused problems for them. </p>
<p>But this is the word that Luke, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, used. And for the Byzantine monks to change Luke&#8217;s writing from ἐκλιπόντος to ἐσκοτίσθη is simply wrong. </p>
<p>Consider the explanation of this issue from the NET Bible, which has the best set of textual notes of any English translation I know:</p>
<p><b>The wording “the sun’s light failed” is a translation of τοῦ ἡλίου ἐκλιπόντος/ ἐκλείποντος (<i>tou hēliou eklipontos/ ekleipontos</i>), a reading found in the earliest and best witnesses (among them P75 ℵ B C✱vid L 070 579 2542 pc) as well as several ancient versions. The majority of MSS (A C3 [D] W Θ Ψ ƒ1, 13 M lat sy) have the flatter, less dramatic term, “the sun was darkened” (ἐσκοτίσθη, <i>eskotisthe</i>), a reading that avoids the problem of implying an eclipse (see &#8230; below). This alternative thus looks secondary because it is a more common word and less likely to be misunderstood as referring to a solar eclipse. That it appears in later witnesses rather than the earliest ones adds confirmatory testimony to its inauthentic character.</p>
<p>This imagery has parallels to the Day of the Lord: Joel 2:10; Amos 8:9; Zeph 1:15. Some students of the NT see in Luke’s statement the sun’s light failed (<i>eklipontos</i>) an obvious blunder in his otherwise meticulous historical accuracy. The reason for claiming such an error on the author’s part is due to an understanding of the verb as indicating a solar eclipse when such would be an astronomical impossibility during a full moon. There are generally two ways to resolve this difficulty: (a) adopt a different reading (“the sun was darkened”) that smoothes over the problem (discussed in the [textual comment] problem above), or (b) understand the verb <i>eklipontos</i> in a general way (such as “the sun’s light failed”) rather than as a technical term, “the sun was eclipsed.” The problem with the first solution is that it is too convenient, for the Christian scribes who, over the centuries, copied Luke’s Gospel would have thought the same thing. That is, they too would have sensed a problem in the wording and felt that some earlier scribe had incorrectly written down what Luke penned. The fact that the reading “was darkened” shows up in the later and generally inferior witnesses does not bolster one’s confidence that this is the right solution. But second solution, if taken to its logical conclusion, proves too much for it would nullify the argument against the first solution: If the term did not refer to an eclipse, then why would scribes feel compelled to change it to a more general term? The solution to the problem is that <i>ekleipo</i> did in fact sometimes refer to an eclipse, but it did not always do so. (BDAG 306 s.v. ἐκλείπω notes that the verb is used in Hellenistic Greek “Of the sun cease to shine.” In MM it is argued that “it seems more than doubtful that in Lk 23:45 any reference is intended to an eclipse. To find such a reference is to involve the Evangelist in a needless blunder, as an eclipse is impossible at full moon, and to run counter to his general usage of the verb = ‘fail’…” [p. 195]. They enlist Luke 16:9; 22:32; and Heb 1:12 for the general meaning “fail,” and further cite several contemporaneous examples from papyri of this meaning [195-96]) Thus, the very fact that the verb can refer to an eclipse would be a sufficient basis for later scribes altering the text out of pious motives; conversely, the very fact that the verb does not always refer to an eclipse and, in fact, does not normally do so, is enough of a basis to exonerate Luke of wholly uncharacteristic carelessness.</b></p>
<p>Finally, you point out that 8 (count &#8216;em, <i>eight</i>) translations based on the standard eclectic text that have translated ἐκλιπόντος as &#8220;eclipse.&#8221; Did you make this number up? No translation that I use and no major contemporary translation uses the word <i>eclipse</i> in Luke 23:45. I don&#8217;t care if the Moffatt translation used <i>eclipse</i>. Nobody uses that translation today, and it did not win wide use when it was published. </p>
<p>Consider the following versions as evidence that your so-called &#8220;8 translations&#8221; was nothing more than a straw man argument:</p>
<p><b>“he sun’s light failing: and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.” (ASV)</p>
<p>“while the sun’s light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.” (ESV)</p>
<p>“because the sun’s light failed. The curtain of the sanctuary was split down the middle.” (HCSB)</p>
<p>“the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two.” (NASB)</p>
<p>“because the sun was obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two.” (NASB &#8216;95 update)</p>
<p>“The sun had stopped shining. The curtain in the temple was split in two.” (GWT)</p>
<p>“because the sun’s light failed. The temple curtain was torn in two.” (NET)</p>
<p>“The light from the sun was gone. And suddenly, the thick veil hanging in the Temple was torn apart.” (NLT1)</p>
<p>“The light from the sun was gone. And suddenly, the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn down the middle.” (NLTse)</p>
<p>“for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.” (NIV)</p>
<p>“for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.” (TNIV)</p>
<p>“while the sun’s light failed; and the curtain of the temple was torn in two.” (NRSV)</p>
<p>“a total blackout. The Temple curtain split right down the middle.” (MESSAGE)</p>
<p>“the sun’s light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.” (REB)</p>
<p>&#8220;when the sun stopped shining &#8230; and the curtain hanging in the Temple was torn in two.&#8221; (TEV)</b></p>
<p>As you can see above, NOBODY is translating ἐκλιπόντος as <i>eclipse</i> because that&#8217;s simply not what the word meant in the Koine Greek of the NT. Anyone who does translate it this was is producing a bad and uninformed rendering.</p>
<p>By the way, the standard eclectic text is based upon more than five manuscripts. Whoever told you this is uninformed.</p>
<p>The leadership of the Reformation used the Textus Receptus because it was the best tradition of its day. Heck, if I&#8217;d been around at that time, I would have used it, too. We&#8217;re better informed now.</p>
<p>Why would I believe that Christians (and not heretics) would change the Word of God? Because there are always Christians who simply are uninformed to certain principles of translation, such as the philological issues surrounding a word like ἐκλείπω. There were also Christian scribes who misread a word (or misheard for those instances where it was being dictated) and copied down an incorrect one. I&#8217;m not accusing any scribe of meaning to harm the words of the NT writers. I&#8217;m sure they they either made natural mistakes or thought they were working in the best interest of the reading. Again, I would refer you to Metzger&#8217;s book, <i>The Text of the New Testament: It’s Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration</i> for a complete listing of the kind of errors that led to those found in the Byzantine tradition.</p>
<p>Finally, in regard to the Vulgate and ch. 13 of OABV, I believe you are misreading your sources, and yes, I still call this a red herring. That chapter has to do with the 1881 Revised Version of the Bible. This was a translation that was widely rejected by protestants of the English speaking world and corrected 20 years later in the ASV. I don&#8217;t care whether the RV agreed with the Vulgate or not. I don&#8217;t rely on the RV any more than I&#8217;d rely on the Westcott Hort Greek New Testament (which incidentally Hendrickson recently republished). We&#8217;ve come a long way since both of those editions and our understanding of the Greek text, the manuscripts that support it, and how to render it in English has greatly increased.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The case of the missing Bible verses&#8230; by Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/11/14/the-case-of-the-missing-bible-verses/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 04:38:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/11/14/the-case-of-the-missing-bible-verses/#comment-52</guid>
		<description>rmansfield, since you (apparently) didn't bother to read the sources I cited, I'll have to quote from them to correct the errors you insist on continuing to make.
No, Luke was not trying to teach an eclipse of the sun - but the people who produced the corrupt Alexandrian manuscripts were. That this heresy was taught very early is evident from a citation in Josh McDowell's book The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict. Julius Africanus, writing A.D. 221, cites Thallus, from A.D. 52, arguing that this darkness was due to an eclipse of the sun. Julius Africanus said that this was "without reason," since a solar eclipse cannot take place at the time of the full moon.
If “eklipontos” is merely another word for darkening, why have at least 8 versions translated it as "eclipsed"? No such translation has ever been made from the word used in the TR.
Had you bothered to read Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, you would have discovered that the King James translators knew about at least 3 of the 5 manuscripts that form the basis of the so-called modern critical text. They rejected them as reliable guides to the true text of the New Testament. On the contrary, the leadership of the Reformation was quite convinced that the Textus Receptus was the genuine New Testament.
Why do you believe that it was Christians, rather than heretics, who changed the text of the New Testament? Men of God do not change the words of God.
The Catholic issue was NOT a red herring. Please read chapter 13 of OABV for confirmation that the modern critical text conforms to the Latin Vulgate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rmansfield, since you (apparently) didn&#8217;t bother to read the sources I cited, I&#8217;ll have to quote from them to correct the errors you insist on continuing to make.<br />
No, Luke was not trying to teach an eclipse of the sun - but the people who produced the corrupt Alexandrian manuscripts were. That this heresy was taught very early is evident from a citation in Josh McDowell&#8217;s book The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict. Julius Africanus, writing A.D. 221, cites Thallus, from A.D. 52, arguing that this darkness was due to an eclipse of the sun. Julius Africanus said that this was &#8220;without reason,&#8221; since a solar eclipse cannot take place at the time of the full moon.<br />
If “eklipontos” is merely another word for darkening, why have at least 8 versions translated it as &#8220;eclipsed&#8221;? No such translation has ever been made from the word used in the TR.<br />
Had you bothered to read Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, you would have discovered that the King James translators knew about at least 3 of the 5 manuscripts that form the basis of the so-called modern critical text. They rejected them as reliable guides to the true text of the New Testament. On the contrary, the leadership of the Reformation was quite convinced that the Textus Receptus was the genuine New Testament.<br />
Why do you believe that it was Christians, rather than heretics, who changed the text of the New Testament? Men of God do not change the words of God.<br />
The Catholic issue was NOT a red herring. Please read chapter 13 of OABV for confirmation that the modern critical text conforms to the Latin Vulgate.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The case of the missing Bible verses&#8230; by rmansfield</title>
		<link>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/11/14/the-case-of-the-missing-bible-verses/#comment-51</link>
		<dc:creator>rmansfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 20:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/11/14/the-case-of-the-missing-bible-verses/#comment-51</guid>
		<description>Yes, see my last paragraph in the longer comment I left today regarding the article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, see my last paragraph in the longer comment I left today regarding the article.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The case of the missing Bible verses&#8230; by titus.blair</title>
		<link>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/11/14/the-case-of-the-missing-bible-verses/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>titus.blair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 20:30:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/11/14/the-case-of-the-missing-bible-verses/#comment-50</guid>
		<description>rmansfield,
thanks so much for your input, and I will def. need to take a look at the books :)  Were you able to read the link to the article about the KVJ?  I appreciate your explanation of Colossians 4:15, it is always nice to see other perspectives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rmansfield,<br />
thanks so much for your input, and I will def. need to take a look at the books <img src='http://www.christianity20.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Were you able to read the link to the article about the KVJ?  I appreciate your explanation of Colossians 4:15, it is always nice to see other perspectives.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The case of the missing Bible verses&#8230; by rmansfield</title>
		<link>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/11/14/the-case-of-the-missing-bible-verses/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>rmansfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 20:25:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/11/14/the-case-of-the-missing-bible-verses/#comment-49</guid>
		<description>By the way, if you want helpful (and serious) sources on this issue, I'd recommend two books by Bruce Metzger:

&lt;i&gt;A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament&lt;/i&gt;
and
&lt;i&gt;The Text of the New Testament: It's Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, if you want helpful (and serious) sources on this issue, I&#8217;d recommend two books by Bruce Metzger:</p>
<p><i>A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament</i><br />
and<br />
<i>The Text of the New Testament: It&#8217;s Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration</i></p>
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		<title>Comment on The case of the missing Bible verses&#8230; by rmansfield</title>
		<link>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/11/14/the-case-of-the-missing-bible-verses/#comment-48</link>
		<dc:creator>rmansfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 20:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.christianity20.com/2007/11/14/the-case-of-the-missing-bible-verses/#comment-48</guid>
		<description>It's difficult to be dogmatic about Col 4:15, even based on the manuscript evidence. I'd be inclined to believe the standard Greek text is correct, however, and that the reading is "her" house. For one, my hunch is that Νύμφα is the correct name as opposed to Νυμφᾶς (it's obscured by the fact that the name is in the accusative and ends with a nu: Νύμφαν). But the feminine version is well-attested in Greek literature, and the masculine form is not. In fact, according to the BDAG lexicon, if the name is masculine is must be shortened from Νυμφόδωρος and the end result would still be a "boy named Sue" to borrow from Johnny Cash.

The Anchor Bible Dictionary has this to say about the issue:
&lt;i&gt;"Nympha’s place in the NT as a female Christian has been retained only at the cost of some debate. While her gender is assumed to be feminine by the RSV, since her name in Greek is cited only in the accusative case, Nymphan, which could refer to a woman named Nympha or a man named Nymphas, other translations have variously interpreted this person. The issue has been complicated by variations in manuscripts for the possessive pronoun modifying “house” in Col 4:15. Some texts read autēs, “her,” others autou, “his,” still others, autōn, “their.” Since the feminine reading is the hardest to explain, it is most likely to be the original. The masculine form was probably a correction of the feminine by copyists who could not envision a woman in such a leadership role. The reading “their” could have been substituted when scribes included in the pronoun the earlier mention of “brethren” in Col 4:15.&lt;/i&gt;

The fact that a woman would have a church in her house doesn't seem that odd to me in light of 2 John.

As for the article, I skimmed it yesterday. I'll be honest, and I rarely am so blunt in my characterizations, but it's KJV-only (and anti-Catholic) nonsense. I've read stuff like it before, and this type of rhetoric is used to defend the use of the KJV as the only proper scripture. You realize those boys wouldn't approve of your NKJV either, don't you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s difficult to be dogmatic about Col 4:15, even based on the manuscript evidence. I&#8217;d be inclined to believe the standard Greek text is correct, however, and that the reading is &#8220;her&#8221; house. For one, my hunch is that Νύμφα is the correct name as opposed to Νυμφᾶς (it&#8217;s obscured by the fact that the name is in the accusative and ends with a nu: Νύμφαν). But the feminine version is well-attested in Greek literature, and the masculine form is not. In fact, according to the BDAG lexicon, if the name is masculine is must be shortened from Νυμφόδωρος and the end result would still be a &#8220;boy named Sue&#8221; to borrow from Johnny Cash.</p>
<p>The Anchor Bible Dictionary has this to say about the issue:<br />
<i>&#8220;Nympha’s place in the NT as a female Christian has been retained only at the cost of some debate. While her gender is assumed to be feminine by the RSV, since her name in Greek is cited only in the accusative case, Nymphan, which could refer to a woman named Nympha or a man named Nymphas, other translations have variously interpreted this person. The issue has been complicated by variations in manuscripts for the possessive pronoun modifying “house” in Col 4:15. Some texts read autēs, “her,” others autou, “his,” still others, autōn, “their.” Since the feminine reading is the hardest to explain, it is most likely to be the original. The masculine form was probably a correction of the feminine by copyists who could not envision a woman in such a leadership role. The reading “their” could have been substituted when scribes included in the pronoun the earlier mention of “brethren” in Col 4:15.</i></p>
<p>The fact that a woman would have a church in her house doesn&#8217;t seem that odd to me in light of 2 John.</p>
<p>As for the article, I skimmed it yesterday. I&#8217;ll be honest, and I rarely am so blunt in my characterizations, but it&#8217;s KJV-only (and anti-Catholic) nonsense. I&#8217;ve read stuff like it before, and this type of rhetoric is used to defend the use of the KJV as the only proper scripture. You realize those boys wouldn&#8217;t approve of your NKJV either, don&#8217;t you?</p>
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